Sport/working Enthusiasts > Schutzhund and only schutzhund? (142 replies)

by johan77 on 02 February 2012 - 15:02

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Of course breeders in denmark, or elsewhere, are not intressted in a dog that is too mediocre to pass a SCH-trial with decent scores, but far from all dogs used are dogs that are placing top 3 in big SCH-competitions. Do you think many breeders in france or holland are intressted in using a ring/KNPVdog that also is too mediocre to get decent points in their sports? Dogs used in denmark have of course proven that they could work outside SCH, why else do you find dogs working in police that comes from danish dogs or dogs used there? A dog doing french ring is just the same, they have not proven anything more than they work in french ring, so in that sense they are not different. 

by myret on 04 February 2012 - 21:02

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johan77

no dogs in denmark have not proved that they could work in other things that schh not the danish police dogs ever they cant bite many of them ,many of the schh lines cant bite.
the danish police dogs can use there nose but they cant bite as well as many of the other scandinavien police dogs and many of the Uk police dogs are weak biters to

mals can bite they love to use their mouths alredy  as young pups


now a high score in schh says nothing about if its a good working dog , bad scores though can very much indeed be a good dog I have seen severel dogs fail the bite work or disqualify very nice dogs sorry they where not used in breeding though
in RING good scores makes a good dog not like in schh



by myret on 04 February 2012 - 21:02

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you can compare RING/KNPV to schh because its very different programs good scores in KNPV or RING are good dogs you cant make a good KNPV or RING dog

but good SCHH point dogs are made every day by good handlers not good dogs

by myret on 04 February 2012 - 21:02

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I meant you Cant compare the sports

by myret on 04 February 2012 - 22:02

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that is not true

a KNPV or RING titles test many of the working traits especially the biting and ability to hold drive for long time , and take hard corrections without loosing drive it has to withstand the harsh ways thay are trained in Holland and France,Belgium


I have put this video this is not an all schh litter with only schh titled  , I can not find the pedigree on this litter but that certainly does not look like a normal gsd schh litter and its not just watch the way thay are biting already , that is how the mals normally look like not the gsd and I am quite sure this is not a normal schh litter because they are to weak in their drive to act like this



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=saVrCCLDLI0 




by Chaz Reinhold on 04 February 2012 - 22:02

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Lol!

by beetree on 04 February 2012 - 23:02

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I think that is great that you understood that! I watched the video, too.

by johan77 on 04 February 2012 - 23:02

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Myret, it´s very strange that many of the SCH-lines can´t bite as you said, how could there be SCH-lines when biting is a part of SCH;)

It´s clear you don´t know much about this, of course there are SCH-dogs that produce police or other workingdogs both in europe or US. There was a topis recently on the german sheperd part of this site that disscused dogs that was proven outside sport, one policedog in US was mentioned for his good qualities, and guess what, he comes from a swedish kennel with a bitch from denmark, well known SCH-lines in that dog. I could give you many more examples but it´s just plain silly to even argue such an obvious thing, that scandinavian GSDs from the same lines they use in gemany or US can´t bite when placed on scandinavian ground.

But please tell me why the best scoring french ring GSD in the last championsip in  french ring is more proven and more suited for policework than a well known danish SCH-dog like satoris gator for example

by mfh27 on 05 February 2012 - 02:02

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Please don't tell these police dogs they come from "schutzhund lines", or else they may not work as well.  And heaven only knows what would happen if you told them they also have schutzhund titles

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=453928

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=626220

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=469183

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=498359

by workingdogz on 05 February 2012 - 10:02

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myret,

I bet you can find video's of highline puppies biting
like that too.
I didn't see anything in the video that I have not
seen in a typical working line GSD litter.
Am I missing something?

Most "ring" lines go back to typical Schutzhund dogs, AND
some WG highlines too!!!!

by myret on 05 February 2012 - 12:02

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Johan77 Lers agree to not agree we wont get anywhere I did not write that All schh cant but many of Them it is not genetical ,some Lines are defently not All Lets take the mals they often bite and use their mouth more than most gsd does from a Young age they love to bite and tug most schh gsd have learned to bite nothing genetic there Johan77 You generalize everything I write of course there are som good dogs among the danish one We have been through this before and I Will never change my mind I meet alot of police dogs In my proffession and not many of Them Well I Would not Own many of these lack of drive dogs i dont blame people for getting a mal instead

by myret on 05 February 2012 - 12:02

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johan77


you wrote
But please tell me why the best scoring french ring GSD in the last championsip in french ring is more proven and more suited for policework than a well known danish SCH-dog like satoris gator for example




 


Yes I would say that to your question.

think you all mis the point the point is no one i saying that schh titles are all bad and every dog from schh lines are bad that is not what been said


even if you like it or not RING or KNPV TITLES tests the dogs alot more and selects traits in dogs schh does not do that is a fact



you can say it all you like that schh is just a good at selecting traits as many of the other programs but that is true

here is a damn good dog bred from some of the best schh lines http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=627896


it has nothing to do with schh but the traits in the dog that are selected when breeding 

Johan77
dont want to disquss Gator again we have been through this before and are getting nowhere I understand you think schh titles are just as good as  RING or KNPV




SO 






by myret on 05 February 2012 - 13:02

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Inscrito: Wed Jan 05, 2011 08:39 pm
who says anything about that  schh titles cant produce police dogs I see it all the time

does not matter what it does or do not do many of the gsd today lack drive in bite work they lack intensity and the power to fight like a malinois does more or less

so I could not care about witch dogs are police dogs the matter of fact is that mals have more drive than gsd and that is dur to breeding and the titles they have had to get before breeding

you can easily often see the difference bewteen malionis schh lines or the RING or KNPV lines alot of difference from pups they are biting alot more the not schh lines and much more driven to bite and tug than the other lines





by myret on 05 February 2012 - 13:02

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WorkingDogz Ive postet this In this forum but another tread and this type of litter is not common In gsd most mals not gsd Again it does not matter If RING titled dogs came from schh Lines the traits they bred have changed it only takes one of two generations to change some traits and abilitys

by johan77 on 05 February 2012 - 14:02

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Myret, I think it´s you who always makes generalizations when you say things like many GSDs from SCH-lines can´t bite or scandinavian policedogs are weak, and especially that all KNPV and ringdogs are very good. I never said SCH test anything more than other sports, I say there are many dogs used in breedings from SCH-lines that are used due to their drives and character, and not only because their SCH-scores.

For me it doesn´t matter what lines or sports are used, a mediocre dog that scores well in french ring are not more intressting to me than a stronger dog doing SCH. Also, you always talks about mals and their love for chasing and biting, like that´s the only things a good dog is made of, what about nerves, hardness, courage and so on ? I understand you don´t care about if a dog could do policework and not only sport, for me I rather see a dog that could do more than sport, and not only be a decent ringdog but not fitted for servicework.

by Chaz Reinhold on 05 February 2012 - 15:02

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Myrat, I'm glad you just wrote that since your pup is pretty much all SchH from the third gen .

by darylehret on 05 February 2012 - 16:02

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I bet you can find video's of highline puppies biting
like that too.
I didn't see anything in the video that I have not
seen in a typical working line GSD litter.
Am I missing something?


 

Evidently I AM, if that litter's so "typical" of a workingline GSD litter.  Definitely not the kind of generalization I would make.  The French must be doing something right, because it seems more common in their genepool and other nearby countries that do not breed strictly for schutzhund.  Personally, I like schutzhund, but I'm not greatly impressed by how it tests the dog.  I think ringsport is FAR more impressive for what it requires of the dog to attain a well scored performance.  But ultimately, I doubt any test is foolproof to safeguard the characteristics we wish to retain in our breeding.

by myret on 05 February 2012 - 16:02

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Johann77 Again I never wrote that All RING sport dogs are good dogs but they are doping something right like the tiekerhook kennel Koos hé is doing something because when it All comes to it it boils down to genes and traits not schh or RING but selective breeding Im not good at explaining myself In english so maybe thats one reason no understands

by myret on 05 February 2012 - 16:02

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Like I wrote has nothing to so with schh titles behind the pedigree the traits have changed In france the last couple of years Some of the good old hard but stil workabel Lines In schh the gsd has changed If you like it or not that dó to selective breeding not for All better

by myret on 05 February 2012 - 17:02

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I cant explain the difference between a All schh litter and a RING no matter If its mals or gsd but there is a difference you Can see it In the pups at a Young age I've spoken to breeders here at they could see the difference In the pups when they bred to Vasco with some of the old schh dogs like aly,Nick ,Half ,fero,trold,yochy,and the french line There pups where different than the normal only schh they use to bred only

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